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Village Chief of Eucar
Posts: 1038
 
Location: haterland | After experimenting and comparing the new 180 armor to other armors, it's somewhat obvious that they need to be improved.
The adjustments I suggest to make are increase the base defense and magic resistance of all the 180 armors, increase the effectiveness of blue versions (grand, golden, elven), and add item appraisal to the blue armors. This thread will mainly be about the defense and magic defense of armors though because there are already proposals for the other two adjustments.
Defense and Magic Resistance -
I believe the defense and magic resistance of the 180 armors is not properly tiered as the rest of the armors are. It gives too little benefit for being 180 armor over 160 armor. The benefits of 160 over 140 gear is greater than the benefit of 180 over 160 armor. It shouldn't be like this.
Example -
All unrefined yellows
Lv140 - Netherworld Chest - 158 def, 120 mdef
Lv160 - Steel Resolve Chest - 171 def, 129 mdef
Lvl180 - Shadow Fall Sash - 176 def, 134 mdef
The Steel Resolve Chest has a 13 def and 9 mdef increase over the Netherworld Chest which is properly tiered.
Then you take a look at the Shadow Fall Sash and they only have an increase of 5 def and 5 mdef whilst being much higher level armor aka the highest level armor available. This is obviously not correctly tiered. Even when comparing Captain Hawker gear to Netherworld gear, which is only a 10 level difference, the defense and mdef differences exceed the difference between 160 and 180 gear.
This is not just for the Chest pieces either. The entire set is incorrectly tiered in terms of defense.
Example 2 -
All unrefined yellows
Lv140 - Netherworld Gloves - 111 def, 98 mdef
Lv160 - Steel Resolve Gloves - 119 def, 107 mdef
Lvl180 - Shadow Fall Wraps - 124 def, 110 mdef
Lv140 - Netherworld Boots - 128 def, 98 mdef
Lv160 - Steel Resolve Boots - 138 def, 107 mdef
Lvl180 - Shadow Fall Boots - 143 def, 110 mdef
Just look at the differences. It does not make any sense. The Lv180 gear needs to be adjusted to increase both its defense and mdefense.
This goes for all jobs/classes armors not just the hawkers.
The solution - Take the base defense and magic defense of each piece of Lv160 gear and multiply it by around 0.08 or 8%. Add that number to the base defense and mdef of 160 gear and you have the adjusted and correct of the new lv180 armor.
I say around 8% because that is the difference between Lv140 gear and Lv160 gear.
That would mean Lv180 shadow fall armor would look like this -
(example)
Shadow Fall Sash - 185 def, 139 mdef (increase of 9def and 5mdef from current version)
Shadow Fall Boots - 149 def, 116 mdef (increase of 6def and 6mdef from current version)
Shadow Fall Wraps - 128 def, 115 mdef (increase of 4def and 5mdef from current version)
This also sets the armors up properly so that a lv180 gear refined to (6) should be close to a lv160 gear refined to (7). Not how it is now where are lv180 gear can be 15 def lower at (6) compared to a lv160 gear (7).
The pros of making this a reality and adjusting the base properties are that the new gear will actually be useful and people will want it. As it is now, there is no point in obtaining lv180 armor unless it's the dark/demon version and even then only for the bolded stat and used as buff gear. If it was adjusted people would have to choose between the higher defense and mdef of the new armor and the stats of lv160 braves/legendary. There is no purpose, need, or want for the new armors unless you want that tiny sliver of defense which most people do not care about. If it was increased it would make a larger difference overall and increase the want factor.
Edit - One other thing, increase defense isn't a bad thing. It would help PvP so much and PvM most people just abuse dex and don't use def.
Edited by Kzyy 4/10/2009 7:05 AM
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3rd Class Citizen
Posts: 376
| +1 It should help the duration of some pvp ^^ and the capacity of every class to solo without cleric buff...curently it s very hard to solo at ruine or prison without cleric buff.
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2nd Class Citizen
Posts: 134
Location: Undercity,Tirisfal Glades | +3 ya 180 above 160 only give 9 def of more so is not very much the worth get one set only for the look 
Edited by Lich_King 4/10/2009 1:56 PM
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Guardian of the Forgotten Temple
Posts: 1851
| Wow Kaizy I was literally just about to propose the same thing, but with pictures for reference, but you beat me too it!
Yes this really needs to be looked into comparing the Steel Resolve chest to the Netherworld chest there is an 8.2% increase in defense, where as the the Shadow Fall to the Steel Resolve, it is only a 2.9% increase. (Some of the other armors have less than a 2 percent increase). |
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Village Chief of Eucar
Posts: 1189
Location: vancouver, bc | +1
would like to see ~8% increase.
Edited by buttered corn 4/10/2009 2:21 PM
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Raknu Tribal Warrior
Posts: 4458
| Is is just me or is the def on the Sage set less then on the dimple set. Refined and unrefined (I checked yellows and blues) |
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Raknu Tribal Scout
Posts: 3084
Location: Bear Cave | I couldn't agree more with this idea. As it stands, there is almost no point in getting the 180 gear for my knight since I would need to get everything refined to 8 for it to be better. But even then, I gain like 8 defense per piece. |
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Raknu Tribal Warrior
Posts: 4916
| If the armors were hard to obtain, I would totally agree with you. However obtaining these new armors is a laugh. It is waaaaaaaaay to easy so I think the benefit shouldn't be as extreme as the 140-160 armors.
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Guardian of the Forgotten Temple
Posts: 1851
| Jager - 4/10/2009 7:17 PM
If the armors were hard to obtain, I would totally agree with you. However obtaining these new armors is a laugh. It is waaaaaaaaay to easy so I think the benefit shouldn't be as extreme as the 140-160 armors.
If you haven't noticed you can buy all the other armor from the NPC. So as easy it is to obtain yellow pieces of 180 armor, the others are still easier. |
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Mayor of Eldeon
Posts: 8168
Location: you mess with one, you mess with all hun | +4 .. Joeepoo you have too much time on your hands. ^_^ |
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Guardian of the Forgotten Temple
Posts: 1851
| Actually looking at the pattern it seems the very minor increase in defense was intentional. I used the soldier chest pieces because they have the highest defense out of all others for more accurate results.
46% Increase
42% Increase
35% Increase
31% Increase
23% Increase
20% Increase
16% Increase
9.6% Increase
5.4% Increase
8.3% Increase
3.3% Increase
With the exception of the Abyss Plate to Righteous Plate, all the other armor sets have steadily decreasing defense difference. Although it makes sense now it isn't really practical when a reinforced 160 has more defense than a yellow 180 of the same refine.
Imagine the level 200 armors when they come out... 1% increase from the 180..... |
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Village Chief of Eucar
Posts: 1038
Location: haterland | Well, of course it makes sense that the armors would start with a high percentage increase and tier down.. This is because those low level armors have such low base defense that if they were all tiered with the same percentage increase a low level armor would give like +4 more def than it's previous counterpart which is just as much of a joke as the current 180 gear is.
BUT
Just because all the armors are tiering down in percentage doesn't mean this trend should continue. It is against common sense to do so. The percentages provide a skewed view of this problem as well because if the percentage stayed high it would overpower higher level armors. There is a certain amount of practicality that must be practiced when dealing with matters such as these because the simple formula doesn't cut it.
The obvious thing to do is implement a minimum cap on certain level armors for the percent increase so it cannot go below 7-8%. Otherwise, like Phish-it said, Lv200 armors would be nothing short of a joke.
Take a look at this comparison of the soldier armors provided in Phish-it's post -
12 def difference between level 10 and level 30 armor
16 def difference between level 30 and level 50 armor
19 def difference between level 50 and level 70 armor
23 def difference between level 70 and level 85 armor
23 def difference between level 85 and level 100 armor
24 def difference between level 100 and level 110 armor
23 def difference between level 110 and level 120 armor
16 def difference between level 120 and level 130 armor
10 def difference between level 130 and level 140 armor
16 def difference between level 140 and level 160 armor
7 def difference between level 160 and level 180 armor
As you can see, the gear steadily increases in defense and then tapers off as it should. It should stay consistent at +10 to 16 defense. The only one that deviates from this into a single digit increase is the Lv180 armor. This should raise red flags in the devs' minds.
Also while we're discussing armors, the 130 armor NEEDS to be revised. The dev/GM team was lazy when implementing these as you can tell when comparing captain hawker boots to steel resolve boots. Because of the fact that the current level 130 gear was intended to be the level 180 gear and was on the test server, they have certain stats that are higher than they should be or have a percent increase/def increase that doesn't really fit in with the other gear. This is why captain hawker boots have higher base movement speed than steel resolve boots.
The level 110 gear could also use a look at as it was originally intended to be higher level hawker gear than it is, but was changed to common clothes and then changed again to hawker gear but a lower level. Silentwalker boots have higher base movment speed than Wild Hawker boots but less magic resistance than Jaguar Boots. Makes sense? I don't think so. This is part of the reason why I believe the lv130 armor is the anomaly in the percent increases.
To sum it up, the whole armor database needs to be carefully scrutinized and adjusted properly because the implementation of some armor was rushed or not carefully looked over.
@Jager Your point is null and void because as Phish said all armors besides 180 armor are available at npcs. That makes it the hardest armor in game to obtain. 
Edited by Kzyy 4/10/2009 7:00 PM
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Mayor of Junon
Posts: 855
Location: Banned | Joe must've been tired of me complaining about how crappy the 180 armors were compared to 160 in clan chat, so he made this. xD Anyways, the minimal increase makes the new 180 armor not worth getting. |
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Village Chief of Zant
Posts: 652
Location: ?????? [IGN:Waambulance] [ALT:Steroids] | RedSapphire - 4/10/2009 8:47 PM Joe must've been tired of me complaining about how crappy the 180 armors were compared to 160 in clan chat, so he made this. xD Anyways, the minimal increase makes the new 180 armor not worth getting. Shhhhh, let everyone think otherwise. 
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Guardian of the Forgotten Temple
Posts: 1851
| Bumping this because it should be looked into. The fact that the level 10 - 30 gear gives a greater numerical boost in defense than the 160 -180 is an obvious problem. |
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1st Class Citizen
Posts: 84
| While I agree it would be nice to have additional def and mdef added to the armor, but I don’t think you can keep justifying it by saying lvl xx armor to xx armor was this, therefore 160 -180 should be at least this.
To illustrate this think about annual / semiannual raises, around 1 -3 dollars or more depending on place of employment. The company / firm may have had a good year, so they gave you a 2 dollar raise after you’ve been working for 6 months. You cannot expect this trend to continue up higher, or even at the same rate because eventually you will be making too much money (in the companies eyes anyways).
So that will never happen. Some jumps are larger than others, but the higher you go the less of an increase you should get from one step to another.
At least that’s my take on it.
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Village Chief of Eucar
Posts: 1038
Location: haterland | No need to bump. :o I pmed Zep awhile ago and they're working on it.
Originally written by Zeppelin (4/10/2009 6:56 PM)
Thank you for the well thought out report. I have passed along this information to the rest of the development team. We were aware of the need to further enchance all armor stats prior to their release, and will work towards doing so in a future patch.
-Zeppelin
@Mrtumtumbum I don't think you can make that kind of comparison because you are comparing two way different things. I didn't suggest a larger increase than previous either as in your example. I suggested a steady increase that follows the pattern of the rest of the armor in game where the next level armor is one refine level better than the previous lower level armor. |
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Mayor of Junon
Posts: 880
Location: At my desk | i actually like the idea of making the 100+ armors have hardly any difference in defence between each other. This would allow characters to be unique in look and not be forced to use higher lvl armors that they may not like the look of. Just adds a variety to gameplay. |
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1st Class Citizen
Posts: 84
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@Mrtumtumbum I don't think you can make that kind of comparison because you are comparing two way different things. I didn't suggest a larger increase than previous either as in your example. I suggested a steady increase that follows the pattern of the rest of the armor in game where the next level armor is one refine level better than the previous lower level armor.
my response was more directed towards the poster above me on the jumps between low level armor comparative to high level armor.
Edited by Mrtumtumbum 4/14/2009 8:39 PM
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Village Chief of Eucar
Posts: 1038
Location: haterland | Helba - 4/14/2009 8:34 PM
i actually like the idea of making the 100+ armors have hardly any difference in defence between each other. This would allow characters to be unique in look and not be forced to use higher lvl armors that they may not like the look of. Just adds a variety to gameplay.
*cough* They could do that if they just added more armors... but they're a little slow...*cough*
Sorry, but if all 100+ armors had hardly any difference between each other then PvP would be even more ridiculous than it is now aka split second PvP. lol OR it would have lv100 chars so overpowered in PvM because there'd be hardly any difference between lv100 and 200 armor so it'd have to be really high if they wanted PvP to not be over in half a second... thus overpowered. :o
@Mrtum Sorry, my mistake. |
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Mayor of Junon
Posts: 880
Location: At my desk | it wouldnt be like that at all if they fixed alot of things in game but i guess im asking too much from them :)
if recoloring armors takes them 6 months then forget i mentioned this :P |
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Guardian of the Forgotten Temple
Posts: 1851
| Kzyy - 4/14/2009 11:22 PM
No need to bump. :o I pmed Zep awhile ago and they're working on it.
Originally written by Zeppelin (4/10/2009 6:56 PM )
Thank you for the well thought out report. I have passed along this information to the rest of the development team. We were aware of the need to further enchance all armor stats prior to their release, and will work towards doing so in a future patch.
-Zeppelin
@Mrtumtumbum I don't think you can make that kind of comparison because you are comparing two way different things. I didn't suggest a larger increase than previous either as in your example. I suggested a steady increase that follows the pattern of the rest of the armor in game where the next level armor is one refine level better than the previous lower level armor.
Oh nice, thats good to know. |
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1st Class Citizen
Posts: 45
Location: Delaware | 180 gear being weaker then 160 aside, i have to say that the 180s dont even look all that great to me.. not one bit.. you'd think they would look hella cool being as it took however long for them to bring them out, but imo they look lame, especially the soldier gear.. 160 gear i'll never get rid of you for a sad 180 substitute :) |
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3rd Class Citizen
Posts: 457
Location: Koaland, where else you nab. | +1 Joepoo. |
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Guardian of the Forgotten Temple
Posts: 1562
Location: Sweden | YahooElite - 4/16/2009 12:59 PM
180 gear being weaker then 160 aside, i have to say that the 180s dont even look all that great to me.. not one bit.. you'd think they would look hella cool being as it took however long for them to bring them out, but imo they look lame, especially the soldier gear.. 160 gear i'll never get rid of you for a sad 180 substitute :) I like most of them
Also, good suggestion. Thank god they seem to know it's a problem, let's hope they fix it soon :) |
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Adjust 180 Armor - defense and mdef
